Mark's Blog

I would classify this "article" as marketing sales hype. First of
all, where is the evidence for this supposed process of iodine in the
tyroid killing all the germs in the blood. I think that's a quite an
over exaggeration of what actually occurs. A "clinical study" is
alluded to but not cited. He lists a few dietary sources of iodine,
but these sources are also known goitrogens. The chemical properties
of halogens have not been observed in the human body, but this
article conveniently neglects to mention that.
I just don't much trust any information on a page that's asking you
to place an order.
Best wishes,
Celeste

now. Although conventional medicine places emphasis on its
contribution to regulating the body's metabolism, an equally
important role is its contribution to the immunological health of the
body.
absorbing iodine, an important mineral nutrient and potent germ
killer - (though 80% of the less than 25 mg. of iodine in the body is
found elswhere, primarily in muscle and bone, extracellularly - the
thyroid has a concentration of iodine that is over 1,000 times
greater than that found in muscle tissue.) In terms of immunology,
the thyroid gland acts as a gatekeeper: every 17 minutes all the
blood in the body passes through the thyroid, where this gland's
secretion of iodine kills germs that have come into the body (through
absorption of food in the digestive tract, skin injury, respiratory
intake, etc.) Pathogenic micro-organisms, the primary causative agent
for disease in the body, are made weaker during their passage through
the thyroid gland. With each "17 minute passage" they are made still
weaker until most are killed, provided the thyroid has its normal
supply of iodine.
enough iodine in their body for the thyroid to function optimally.
Three disturbing trends initiated in the 20th century made this
collective deficiency inevitable: (1) the introduction of chlorine -
another halogen, like iodine - used in drinking water, pools, and as
a ubiquitous cleaning agent in industry, etc. - which displaces
iodine (see far left sidebar), (2) the alteration of the Western diet
to reduce natural food sources of iodine, and (3) farming practices
designed to increase crop yield which have lead to reduced iodine
content in many foods. Aggravating this diminishing source issue is
the fact that the body does not conserve iodine the way it does iron.
We must receive a regular dietary or supplemental intake in order to
maintain optimal health.
developed by the French physician, Jean Lugol, in 1829. It is a
transparent brown liquid consisting of 10 parts potassium iodide (KI)
to 5 parts iodine to 85 parts of (distilled) water. It is an
effective bactericide and fungicide and, in fact, was, for the better
part of a century, a common antiseptic - (though it has laboratory
uses separate and apart from any medical application). Lugol's and
similar iodine solutions probably fell out of favor in the last half
of the 20th century due to combination of economics and esthetics:
first, it is so cheap to make that it cannot compare to "cleaner,"
value-added antiseptics with more marketing muscle; and secondly, it
will stain clothes and will even temporarily stain skin when used
topically to treat a wound. The internal applications of various
iodine solutions have been published and discussed for well over a
century.
just 6 drops, 4 times daily (24 drops per day). (Read Dr. Orian
Truss). Precautions: Lugol's, like bio-oxidative preparations, is
oxidative. You should avoid taking anti-oxidant supplements (Vitamin
A, C, E, selenium, glutithione, etc.) for the duration of
your "higher-than-normal" usage of Lugol's. You should also follow
high usage of iodine products with Microflora Restoration - or
similar products to replenish vital intestinal flora.
its deficiency diseases and the conditions to which its deficiency
can contribute (i.e. goiter, cretinism, hypothyroidism, etc.) The
amount of iodine necessary to void diagnosable deficiency is quite
small. Below, for example, we provide the U.S. Recommended Daily
Allowance for iodine in mcg.'s.
soybeans, cauliflower, peanuts, cauliflower, etc. But much
agricultural farmland is now iodine-deficient, leading to reduced
levels of iodine in foods. Other areas, such as the Great Lakes
region in the U.S., are naturally deficient in iodine -- a fact that
lead to the massive goiter in the 1930's, when 40% of the people
living in Michigan suffered from goiter.
measure, and by 1940, the practice was in general consumer use. Using
iodized salt has, no doubt, been effective: it contains about 76 mcg.
of iodine per gram. The average person consumes at least 3 grams of
iodized salt daily, exceeding the RDA for iodine by 150 mcg.
aluminum and processing chemical residues, its overuse creates the
well-documented conditions associates with high sodium intake and
sodium-potassium imbalance, etc.
its integration accelerated by the explosive expansion of fast food
outlets, at which table salt's cup doth overflow, one might think we
have seen the last of iodine deficiency. Hardly.
the body's small reserve of iodine. Table salt, by definition, is
mostly "sodium chloride" (what chemists call a "halide" - or a
halogen tied to a mineral, making it a "salt" of a halogen). Although
bound to sodium, the use of table salt as a delivery vehicle for
iodine ironically presents a situation where you ingest far more
chlorine, which displaces iodine (as we will see in a moment) than
you do the iodine itself.
control microbes in public drinking water, belongs to the same class
of elements as iodine: the "halogens" - or elements that are one step
removed from the "inert elements" (or gases) because they have just
one electron missing from their outer shell to make it inert (non-
reactive). This makes them quite readily reactive.
described by J.C. Jarvis, M.D. (Folk Medicine, Henry Holt & Co.,
1958, HB, p. 136), who wrote: "The clinical activity of any one of
these four halogens is in inverse proportion to its atomic weight.
This means that any one of the four can displace the element with a
higher atomic weight, but cannot displace an element with a lower
atomic weight. For example, flourine can displace chlorine, bromine
and iodine because flourine has a lower atomic weight than the other
three. Similarly, chlorine can displace bromine and iodine because
they both have a higher atomic weight. Likewise, bromine can displace
iodine from the body because iodine has a higher atomic weight. But a
reverse order is not possible.
consideration of the addition of chlorine to our drinking water as a
purifying agent. We secure a drinking water that is harmful to the
body not because of its harmful germ content but because the chlorine
content now causes the body to lose the much-needed iodine..."
various methods including: (1) Eating foods rich in iodine: food from
the ocean, radishes, asparagus, carrots, tomatoes, spinach, rhubarb,
potatoes, peas, strawberries, mushrooms, lettuce, bananas, cabbage,
egg yolk, and onions; (2) Painting a small area of the body with
tincture of iodine; and (3) taking preparations known to be rich in
iodine, including cod liver oil, kelp tablets ...
treating various illnesses, including colds and flu, and for
countering the effects of stress: "Supposing you do follow the
suggestions outlined above and find that some weeks the pressures of
your private and your business life are causing you to lose the
ability to bounce back. Then you should add a drop of Lugol's
solution of iodine to your glass of apple or grape juice at
breakfast, or you may take it in the mixture of apple cider vinegar
and water.
potassium iodine) blocks off the body mechanism that organizes for
aggressive action, releasing its hold on the body when opportunity
for rest and relaxation arises. The iodine swings into action the
body and the building up and storing of body reserves. When working
under pressure, include the Lugol's solution dose each day until the
period of pressure passes. If it should happen that your body becomes
saturated with iodine, you will find that there is an increase of
moisture in the nose. If this occurs, omit the iodine until the nose
is normal."

The article below adds another dimension to the idea presented a few days ago
that US citizens get too much iodine. SaraLou
http://www.altcancer.com/lugols.htm
The Thyroid,Iodine & Disease Prevention
The role of the thyroid gland has been understood for some time now. Although
conventional medicine places emphasis on its contribution to regulating the
body's metabolism, an equally important role is its contribution to the
immunological health of the body.
This organ's thyroid cells are the only ones in the body capable of absorbing
iodine, an important mineral nutrient and potent germ killer - (though 80% of
the less than 25 mg. of iodine in the body is found elswhere, primarily in
muscle and bone, extracellularly - the thyroid has a concentration of iodine
that is over 1,000 times greater than that found in muscle tissue.) In terms of
immunology, the thyroid gland acts as a gatekeeper: every 17 minutes all the
blood in the body passes through the thyroid, where this gland's secretion of
iodine kills germs that have come into the body (through absorption of food in
the digestive tract, skin injury, respiratory intake, etc.) Pathogenic
micro-organisms, the primary causative agent for disease in the body, are made
weaker during their passage through the thyroid gland. With each "17 minute
passage" they are made still weaker until most are killed, provided the thyroid
has its normal supply of iodine.
We know from clinical study that few people have anywhere near enough iodine in
their body for the thyroid to function optimally. Three disturbing trends
initiated in the 20th century made this collective deficiency inevitable: (1)
the introduction of chlorine - another halogen, like iodine - used in drinking
water, pools, and as a ubiquitous cleaning agent in industry, etc. - which
displaces iodine (see far left sidebar), (2) the alteration of the Western diet
to reduce natural food sources of iodine, and (3) farming practices designed to
increase crop yield which have lead to reduced iodine content in many foods.
Aggravating this diminishing source issue is the fact that the body does not
conserve iodine the way it does iron. We must receive a regular dietary or
supplemental intake in order to maintain optimal health.
History of Lugol's
Lugol's Iodine (also called "Lugol's solution") was first developed by the
French physician, Jean Lugol, in 1829. It is a transparent brown liquid
consisting of 10 parts potassium iodide (KI) to 5 parts iodine to 85 parts of
(distilled) water. It is an effective bactericide and fungicide and, in fact,
was, for the better part of a century, a common antiseptic - (though it has
laboratory uses separate and apart from any medical application). Lugol's and
similar iodine solutions probably fell out of favor in the last half of the 20th
century due to combination of economics and esthetics: first, it is so cheap to
make that it cannot compare to "cleaner," value-added antiseptics with more
marketing muscle; and secondly, it will stain clothes and will even temporarily
stain skin when used topically to treat a wound. The internal applications of
various iodine solutions have been published and discussed for well over a
century.
Treating Candida Mycoplasia & The Aftermath of Antibiotic Usage
Many alternative physicians will use Lugol's for these conditions -- just 6
drops, 4 times daily (24 drops per day). (Read Dr. Orian Truss). Precautions:
Lugol's, like bio-oxidative preparations, is oxidative. You should avoid taking
anti-oxidant supplements (Vitamin A, C, E, selenium, glutithione, etc.) for the
duration of your "higher-than-normal" usage of Lugol's. You should also follow
high usage of iodine products with Microflora Restoration - or similar products
to replenish vital intestinal flora.
he role of iodine in human nutrition is well-established - as are its deficiency
diseases and the conditions to which its deficiency can contribute (i.e. goiter,
cretinism, hypothyroidism, etc.) The amount of iodine necessary to void
diagnosable deficiency is quite small. Below, for example, we provide the U.S.
Recommended Daily Allowance for iodine in mcg.'s.
Infants 40-50
Ages 1-3 70
Ages 4-6 90
Ages 7-10 120
Age 11 older 150
Pregnant women 175
Lactating women 200
Optimally, people would get all their iodine from dietary sources: soybeans,
cauliflower, peanuts, cauliflower, etc. But much agricultural farmland is now
iodine-deficient, leading to reduced levels of iodine in foods. Other areas,
such as the Great Lakes region in the U.S., are naturally deficient in iodine --
a fact that lead to the massive goiter in the 1930's, when 40% of the people
living in Michigan suffered from goiter.
In 1924, iodine was first added to table salt as a preventative measure, and by
1940, the practice was in general consumer use. Using iodized salt has, no
doubt, been effective: it contains about 76 mcg. of iodine per gram. The average
person consumes at least 3 grams of iodized salt daily, exceeding the RDA for
iodine by 150 mcg.
However, iodized salt has many other drawbacks: it contains aluminum and
processing chemical residues, its overuse creates the well-documented conditions
associates with high sodium intake and sodium-potassium imbalance, etc.
With treated salt's convenient little addition to the Western diet - its
integration accelerated by the explosive expansion of fast food outlets, at
which table salt's cup doth overflow, one might think we have seen the last of
iodine deficiency. Hardly.
Enter "halogen displacement" and the effects of chlorine intake on the body's
small reserve of iodine. Table salt, by definition, is mostly "sodium chloride"
(what chemists call a "halide" - or a halogen tied to a mineral, making it a
"salt" of a halogen). Although bound to sodium, the use of table salt as a
delivery vehicle for iodine ironically presents a situation where you ingest far
more chlorine, which displaces iodine (as we will see in a moment) than you do
the iodine itself.
You see, chlorine, which has been used extensively since 1904 to control
microbes in public drinking water, belongs to the same class of elements as
iodine: the "halogens" - or elements that are one step removed from the "inert
elements" (or gases) because they have just one electron missing from their
outer shell to make it inert (non-reactive). This makes them quite readily
reactive.
The mechanism behind "halogen displacement" was probably best described by J.C.
Jarvis, M.D. (Folk Medicine, Henry Holt & Co., 1958, HB, p. 136), who wrote:
"The clinical activity of any one of these four halogens is in inverse
proportion to its atomic weight. This means that any one of the four can
displace the element with a higher atomic weight, but cannot displace an element
with a lower atomic weight. For example, flourine can displace chlorine, bromine
and iodine because flourine has a lower atomic weight than the other three.
Similarly, chlorine can displace bromine and iodine because they both have a
higher atomic weight. Likewise, bromine can displace iodine from the body
because iodine has a higher atomic weight. But a reverse order is not possible.
A knowledge of this well-known chemical law brings us to a consideration of the
addition of chlorine to our drinking water as a purifying agent. We secure a
drinking water that is harmful to the body not because of its harmful germ
content but because the chlorine content now causes the body to lose the
much-needed iodine..."
To counter the effects of iodine loss, Dr. Jarvis recommended various methods
including: (1) Eating foods rich in iodine: food from the ocean, radishes,
asparagus, carrots, tomatoes, spinach, rhubarb, potatoes, peas, strawberries,
mushrooms, lettuce, bananas, cabbage, egg yolk, and onions; (2) Painting a small
area of the body with tincture of iodine; and (3) taking preparations known to
be rich in iodine, including cod liver oil, kelp tablets ...
But he was particularly keen on the power of Lugol's iodine, for treating
various illnesses, including colds and flu, and for countering the effects of
stress: "Supposing you do follow the suggestions outlined above and find that
some weeks the pressures of your private and your business life are causing you
to lose the ability to bounce back. Then you should add a drop of Lugol's
solution of iodine to your glass of apple or grape juice at breakfast, or you
may take it in the mixture of apple cider vinegar and water.
The point is that the potassium in the solution (Lugol's is 5% potassium iodine)
blocks off the body mechanism that organizes for aggressive action, releasing
its hold on the body when opportunity for rest and relaxation arises. The iodine
swings into action the body and the building up and storing of body reserves.
When working under pressure, include the Lugol's solution dose each day until
the period of pressure passes. If it should happen that your body becomes
saturated with iodine, you will find that there is an increase of moisture in
the nose. If this occurs, omit the iodine until the nose is normal."

well, quick stab,
only thing i can
think is that expression
"cleanliness is next to Godliness"
so the door.....would be the bathroom door,
and
behind it would be the toilet and tub? LOL!
Hannah

I don't know how many of you are into riddles, but here is one froma
book I recently read and I am curious to the answers you all may
have. It's not meant to be reigious or preachy or anything of that
sort. The riddle is as follows:
What will you find behind the door that is one door away from Heaven?
I'll post the answer AFTER at least someone takes a stab at it :-P I
just thought we could use a little light hearted fun. Look for the
answer Sunday!
A new member,
Tiffani

In a message dated 9/18/2002 8:43:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
slpedigo@... writes:
SarahLou,
Iodine excess comes from sodium added to all kinds of foods. Even folks on
low sodium diets get iodine if they eat processed foods that have a
combination of other ingredients from other places. One typical trip to an
American fast food joint will likely net you all the iodine you'd need for a
month!. All salt, so far as I know, that is used in commercial preparation
of processed food, has iodine added to it. It's ubiquitous!
Then, you need to consider vitamin supplements. 95%, or maybe as high as
98%, of multiple daily vitamin supplements have iodine added. Same with
daily multiple mineral supplements. So anyone who is "protecting their
health" with a one-a-day muliple is already getting all the iodine they need.
Add that amount to even salt intake. . .
Another source you have to consider is foods that are naturally high in
iodine to begin with--ocean going fish, other seafood, kelp, seaweed. Anyone
for sushi?!? Folks who are switching to more fish for a healthy diet, if
they eat it more than once a week, are also getting plenty of iodine.
I think the idea that Americans are iodine deficient and that is the reason
for an upswing in hypothyroidism is false. I would look for a cause first,
to the increae of consumption of plant based estrogen in the American diet in
addition to estrogen coming through the American medical system.
Estrogen is antagonist to thyroid hormone in the body. It's not a bad thing
it just is. The body has all kinds of antagonists as back-up systems so it
won't get too off kilter in one direction or the other. But, ingesting too
much estrogen, whether through food (soy), medicine (HRT, birth control),
water (my osteopath told me that municipal water supplies are controlling
"bugs" in their water with estrogen based pesticides), or OTC and HFS
supplements high in soy (protein powders and bars) can markedly depress
thyroid function and thyroid hormone production.
Soy is very bad for the thyroid. It is extremely high in plant based
estrogens. <A
HREF="http://www.nexusmagazine.com/soydangers.html"
/soydangers.html</A
silently ruining the thyroid health of millions of Americans under the guise
of being the perfect food! Pay attention to soy foods ads. They are aimed
straight at menopausal women, the percentage of the population most
frightened by the idea of losing their youth and who are most at risk for
developing some form of thyroid disease! And the women you were looking
around at at your family reunion? Are they mostly in their late 40s/ early
50s? Do they think anything of popping a food or protein bar into their
mouth or a feasting on a tofutti frozen desert? Not likely. They may also
be eating tofu dogs (less fat, doncha know), soy cheese, soy milk for hot
flashes, etc. Not a pretty picture, IMO.
Iodine deficiency in America? Red herring, IMO.
Linda in LA

I would not call a diet where 30% of calories come from fat a low fat
diet. A low fat diet would be 15% to 20% fat calories. A diet that is
30% fat is a moderate fat diet. More than 35% would be a high fat
diet.
Best wishes,
Celeste

SaraLou,
Taking potassium iodide in the event of a nuclear accident has
nothing to do with a protective level of nourishment. It has to do
with overloading the thyroid to keep it from functioning so that it
cannot absorb any other iodine. Often taking potassium iodide in this
manner results in goiter or other symptoms of reduced thyroid
function, but I think that's better than absorbing radioactive iodine
and ending up with cancer.
Best wishes,
Celeste

harmful (moderation in all), your example of taking potassium iodide
to prevent thyroid damage doesn't speak to excess iodine, it only
says that there's a protective level of nourishment given the thyroid
by supplementing.

Celeste,
Where is iodine in the standard American diet (sad)? Is it organic or
inorganic--does it matter?
I ask because at a family reunion this summer I noticed 90% of the (23)women,
relatives and in-laws, have a diagnosed thyroid problem. Several of the others
have the traditional banding of the throat and three-quarter eyebrows and
temperature challenges. One of shared thing I could find is that they all have
cut salt from their diet. Here in the midwest they add iodine to salt because
there is none in the soil. Another is toothpaste--all use fluoridated products.
All of them use aspartame. It is my understanding that just these three things
are a challenge to a woman's hormonal balance.
Granted this tiny sample and unscientific observations may not mean anything,
but give me a little more regarding excess iodine so I can agree with you,
please.
While I don't doubt your statement that excess iodine can be harmful (moderation
in all), your example of taking potassium iodide to prevent thyroid damage
doesn't speak to excess iodine, it only says that there's a protective level of
nourishment given the thyroid by supplementing.
I think there are a lot of women in the US who suffer iodine deficiency. By the
time they get to this list, supplementing may not be helpful as their thyroid is
damaged and iodine alone is most probably inadequate to bring restoration.
SaraLou

Low fat might not be a good idea, since most of us have essential fatty acid
deficiencies. Insulin and thyroid hormones need fats to work properly.
Gracia
diminishes most of my hypothyroid symptoms (especially the pain), I am
trying to eat a low carb diet. Because I am currently about 70 pounds
overweight, I also need to eat low fat. Therefore I am trying to eat 30% of
my daily calories in fat, 35% in carbs, and 35% in protein.
Look here about 3/4 of the way down the page where it talks about insulin
resistance: http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/losingweight.htm

Because I have discovered that eating <100 grams of carbs per day, GREATLY
diminishes most of my hypothyroid symptoms (especially the pain), I am trying to
eat a low carb diet. Because I am currently about 70 pounds overweight, I also
need to eat low fat. Therefore I am trying to eat 30% of my daily calories in
fat, 35% in carbs, and 35% in protein.
Btw, I am still convinced that hypothyroid and blood sugar are connected. Look
here about 3/4 of the way down the page where it talks about insulin resistance:
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/losingweight.htm
Can you send me either here or offlist at rjenkins@... your favorite low
fat, low carb foods and/or recipes?
TIA!
~*~Rhonda~*~

Forest Pharmaceuticals has created a new database of doctors who prescribe
Thyrolar, the synthetic T4/T3 combo medicine. The search engine will give
you the nearest five zip codes to yours, the nearest 10 zip codes, the
nearest 50 miles, or nearest 100 miles.
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/topdrs/thyrolar.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/topdrs/thyrolar.htm</A

Forest Pharmaceuticals has created a new database of doctors who prescribe
Armour Thyroid. You enter your zip code and can request a search of the
nearest five zip codes, the nearest ten zipe codes, the nearest 50 miles, the
nearest 100 miles.
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/topdrs/armour.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/topdrs/armour.htm</A

Hello
Do you want to know what kind of doctor to consult for treatment of
hypothyroidism? What kind of blood tests should you have taken? Dr. Shames
gives his answers:
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/articles/shames%2Dtestsdocs.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/articles/shames%2Dtestsdocs.htm</A
These articles in Mary Shomon's newsletter today answer some of the questions
that have been asked recently on the list. I thought they were interesting
and helpful. Maybe they'll help someone who's frustrated with their current
treatment program or someone else new to the list.
Linda in LA

Renee and John,
Here's what Dr. Richard Shames recommends to anyone using a T3/T4 (in the US,
synthroid/cytomel) combo:
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/articles/shames%2Dt4t3.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/articles/shames%2Dt4t3.htm</A
Linda

Hello Again,
Here is another article I found interesting about the new Food Guidelines set
out by the National Academies' Institute of Medicine. The Academy has
recommended that Americans can include up to 25% of total daily calories in
the form of added sugar! Predictably, and thankfully, Dr. Robert Atkins is
pretty upset about their recommendation when,
"Right now, today, more than 60 percent of the American population and more
He calls on the Academy to rethink and revise their recommendation.
Here's the link:
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/library/news/blatkins.htm"
om/library/news/blatkins.htm</A
Linda in LA

Hi Folks!
Mary Shomon's newsletter for today includes an article by Dr. Richard Shames
on the importance of using the basal body temperature as one piece of
evidence for diagnosing hypothyroidism. He finds it especially useful when
patients consult him whose TSH tests keep coming back "normal." It's not too
long but has a lot of good information in it. Here's the link:
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/articles/shames%2Dbasaltemp.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/articles/shames%2Dbasaltemp.htm</A
Linda in LA

In a message dated 9/17/2002 5:13:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
john.codling@... writes:
Dear John,
It is wonderful to hear that you have found some small respite in your neck
cramping symptoms! I know you have worked at this a long time!
What I'm wondering is what is your body temp? Is is below what a normal temp
would be for a perfectly functioning human body? Have you cahrted your temp
for a week or so? If you are below normal, that is an important clinical
sign that your body isn't converting T4 to T3. So, adding more T4 to your
body, even though I know you don't have a thyroid to produce T4, will make
your symptoms worse which could explain why you felt better initially with
the T4/T3 combo but then you felt bad again. This is a classic sign to a
doctor trained to look for Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome that the patient
temporarily lacks the enzyme allowing to convert T4 to T3. Piling up more T4
in the cells of a person with this condition doesn't help them feel well for
very long--they often feel crummy again soon.
Dr. Wilson states is this way:
"It is not uncommon for symptoms of biochemically euthyroid and clinically
hypothyroid patients to imporve with T4 containing medicine, only to worsen
again after a time. If the dosage of the T4 medicine is then increased, the
patient's symptoms will frequently again improve, only to resurface again
after a similar time interval as the first relapse. If the dosage is
increased again, the same cycle may repeat itself, with the patient getting
on higher and higher doses of the T4 medicine with the same symptoms
returning each time.
"Finally, after one such increase the hypothyroid symptoms may worsen "right
off the bat" without the ususal initial improvement. This is a relatively
bad sign that suggests the patient is being pushed too far in the wrong
direction with the wrong medicine. This is a classic story, and such
patients typically require more cycles of T3 therapy in order to return to
feeling well on less medicine.
"Note: Although the blood tests are not very useful in predicting who will
and who will not repsond well to T3 therapy, I find it interesting that, by
far, the highest RT3/T3 (RIA) ratios that I have seen, arein patients with
this kind of story (too far in the wrong direction with the wrong medicine).
I calculate this ratio by simply dividing the total RT3 (Radio Immune Assay)
by the total T3 (RIA). I use as a reference point the median of the normal
range of RT3 divided by the median of the normal range of T3, which comes out
to about 2 with the units I use. Sometimes untreated patients have RT3/T3
ratios up to about 3 or 4, but the only times I have ever seen ratios of
have been in patients with stories consistent with being pushed too far in
the wrong direction with the wrong medicine."
"Doctor's Manual for Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome" p. 50.

John,
A couple things come to my mind....
1. You could have a sensititivty to the inert
ingredients in the meds, are there any hypoallergenic
options in the UK ?
2. The dose of t3 you are taking for the day of
20mcg, since this is 4x as strong as t4, it's the t4
equivalent of 80 mcg. I'd recommend having your TSH,
t3 & free t4 tested. With the symptoms of hyper,
short of breath, sounds like too much t3, and the
other hypo symptoms of tiredness, fatigue,
constipation, sounds like not enough T4. Bloodwork
can confirm, maybe you'd do better with a lower dose
of T3 & higher T4.
Good Luck,
Pam
--- "Codling, John" <john.codling@...

Hi, Tricia,
It may not be the dose of synthroid you are taking, but rather
the "fillers" in the pills themselves. Many people have allergic
reactions to the dies and the fillers (I, for example, get tingly
legs from Levothroid .112 mcg. It is most likely the dye's in it
because I can take any other dose without a problem).
Good Luck!
Shimiah

Hi, apologies if this has been discussed before. My doc put me on
synthroid approx. 2 weeks ago, after bloodtest and various symptoms
indicated hypothyroidism (on a side note, I am also having 2 nodules
biopsied - is there a correlation between the nodules and
hypothyroidism? - my doc doesn't think so). The first few days I
felt wonderful - I wasn't as exhausted; I could function normally
again. Within a week, I started having intense muscle aches across
my upper back and neck - to the point where I was putting heat on my
back every couple of hours. I cut my dosage in half, and the
soreness has improved (but hasn't gone away).
I am finding conflicting info on the web about this - did the
synthroid cause the aches or could it perhaps be the dosage is too
high and mimicing extreme hypothyroidism?
I have a call into the doc to change the prescription to Thyrolar -
does anyone have an opinion about it?
Thanks so much for any info!
Tricia

I agree with Everything that Linda said, except one thing:
In regards to too much iodine--it is actually iodine DEFICIENCY that
causes GOITER and Hypothyroidism (in countries with un-iodized
salt). Many scientists speculate that, as we in America begin to eat
low-sodium diets, we have seen an increase in hypothyroidism due to
lack of iodine.
Also, municipal water supplies that add fluoride to water also have
higher than usual thyroid disorders as fluoride also suppresses
thyroid function. Distilled water is the best that one can drink, if
it is possible.
Good luck!
Shimiah

In a message dated 9/15/2002 4:01:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
doucet@... writes:
Dear V,
You are not crazy, you're hypothyroid! The blood tests don't detect the
variety of hypothyroidism you have because it's subclinical, meaning it
doesn't register on blood tests. Still, doctors treat many other diseases
for which there are no blood tests so why shouldn't they be able to help you
out? Because the standard treatment for hypothyroidism originated in the
Medical Dark Ages!!
What you likely have is Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome. I would suggest you read
the symptoms list from the webpage link below and see how many match up.
Also, I would suggest you begin measuring your average daily body temperature
because body temp is a very important sign of hypothyroidism in spite of what
traditional endos will tell you. Here's the link: <A
HREF="www.wilsonsthyroidsyndrome.com"
www.wilsonsthyroidsyndrome.com</A
someone in your area who knows about it and will LISTEN to you and give you
the proper medicine you need! You need T3 which is why the T4 only seemed to
work temporarily. It's a problem with conversion of T4 to T3 in the body
cells. I've gotten about 500% better since going on the protocol a year ago.
It was a very important answer to regaining my health I've been searching
for for 30 years!
Good luck!
Linda in LA

In a message dated 9/15/2002 7:59:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
em_a_luv@... writes:
Well, my experience with things other than medicine hasn't been too helpful.
Alternative means HAVE contributed to my overall health but with an
underfunctioning thyroid gland, there's no substitute for actual hormone!
You can't get it in plants or herbs or vitamins or minerals. You can only
get it from medicine.
Since she's young, though, you could see how she responds to the following:
1. change in diet--avoid goitrogens (foods that depress the thyroid gland)
which generally are considered to be cabbage, spinach, kale, broccoli,
cauliflower, millet, African cassava, brussels sprouts, buckwheat.
2. switch to sea salt without iodine and cut back on iodine rich foods such
as seaweed, kelp supplements, etc--we have iodine up to our eyeballs in this
country! It's added to everything through salt. Several respected medical
professionals consider the upswing in hypothyroid symptoms in the USA to
maybe be linked to too much iodine intake.
3. avoid soy foods and soy products--soy is rich in plant estrogens.
Estrogen and thyroid hormone are antagonists in the body. If she has serious
PMS each month that would indicate she is likely over estrogen to begin with.
Soy makes that worse.
4. continue to get plenty of exercise and drink lots of RO water daily
5. some people who are borderline get help by supplementing with Raw Thyroid
Glandulars from the health food store. If you suspect your daughter's
sensitive to iodine, read the label before buying to make sure it doesn't
contain kelp or iodine.
6. eat a diet high in fiber, low in white foods (sugar, white rice, white
flour, too much dairy), plenty of fresh vegetables (5-6 1/2 cup servings per
day), good quality protein (emphasizing fish and chicken but some red meat is
okay).
7. don't cut carbs, she'll go nuts. Carbs are essential to proper
metabolism. Just make sure they are from unrefined grains and have lots of
fiber (fiber helps the body stay hydrated and helps you feel full).
8. tyrosine is sometimes said to help the body manufacture T3 (the active
form of thyroid hormone).
Read the other posts here and you'll get some ideas about blood tests,
medicines to ask a doctor for, diet and life strategies, and what to do if
your blood tests read normal even though you still have hypothyroid symptoms.
That is, if you decide to take her to the doctor.
Hope this helps,
Linda in LA

Hi,
I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism at the end of June when my hair
started falling out in clumps. I have no idea how long I was
actually hypothyroid before that exactly, but know that I've had
trouble with being tired all the time and weight gain for no good
reason for the last 3 years or so. At this point, I've got almost no
hair left.
After I had been diagnosed by my family doctor, she started me at a
docage of 112mcg on Synthroid but I couldn't tolerate it and had to
drop down to 75mcg. I was fine for a few days and better than I'd
felt in a long time, but slowly my symptoms have started to creep up
again. Doc ordered a TSH again and this time it was in the "normal"
range. I don't have copies of my test results or anything so I'm not
sure what the numbers and ranges were. When the test came back and I
was told my levels were "normal" and everything was fine, and that I
just needed to be "paitent", I got upset and had her refer me to an
endocrinologist.
Endocrinologist ordered more blood tests than I'd ever had done in my
young life (I'm 19), and brought my dosage to 100mcg Levoxyl because
he thought the 112-75 drop was too big a difference. Now that my
results are in, he says my hypothyroidism is treated adequately with
a dose of 75mcg Levoxyl or Synthroid (he said he didn't care
which....) so he dropped me back down from 100 to 75 and gave me a
prescription for Synthroid. When I was talking to him I kept trying
to make him listen and understand that I was still having symptoms
and while it was better with the 100mcg it still wasn't quite there
yet, but he pretty much wrote it all off as depression and now I'm on
Wellbutrin. It's been 11 days since that appointment and I was
supposed to wait 10 before deciding whether the Wellbutrin was
helping. I don't think it is. The only difference now is I'm not
sleeping all the time because I CAN'T sleep...
My hair is still falling out like crazy and I'm uncomfortable going
out in public, as if I could even handle going out right now. I have
trouble standing or even sitting for a long period of time before I
get really tired and a little dizzy, and I only feel better when I
lay down. I have trouble concentrating and my coordination is off (I
have trouble walking from the bedroom to the living room couch) and
now I have a new symptom: muscle spasms. I didn't have that before
I started the Wellbutrin. They really don't hurt except when I get
them in my foot and my toes all go in different directions, but
they're very annyoing. Especially when they happen in my
neck...feels like a "twitch".
I don't know what to do at this point. Endocrinologist says I need
to go on a diet to lose weight, but it's not like i'm eating anything
bad. I'm hardly eating anything at all, actually, which I'm sure
doesn't help much. My stomach can't decide when I'm hungry or
nauseous which makes mealtimes really fun. The other factor is my
husband doesn't quite make enough to support both of us and I'm
having a hard time finding a job. I doubt I could _do_ a job right
now but I don't have much of a choice. I've lost about 3 pounds
since I last went to the doc but I think that's because I"m not
eating.
How can I make that man listen to what I'm saying? I understand that
just because my TSH is normal doesn't mean I'm normal, but he won't
listen. My T3 and T4 levels were a little high and he tried to tell
me that's normal and OK because I'm on Ortho Tri-Cyclen...but I don't
understand what he's saying. He said there's nothing wrong with
taking my BC while I'm trying to get this thyroid thing straightened
out. I'm thinking about stopping the Ortho but when I do my periods
are hell. Actually, stopping the Ortho in
January and going back on in March is when my hair started falling
out.
At this point I just don't know what to do anymore. I tried calling
my family doctor but she said to just do whatever the endocrinologist
is telling me. Right now I feel as bad as before I even started this
roller-coaster ride. Should I just stop taking the Wellbutrin and
Ortho Tri-Cyclen and see what happens? I'm actually afraid to. I
guess what I'm asking is, am I going crazy?
-V

In a message dated 9/15/2002 1:58:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cckidsinc@... writes:
Kitty,
Curious where this info is coming from because thyroid medicine is considered
extremely safe and essential during pregnancy if the mother is hypothyroid.
The T3 a woman takes exogenously is the same T3 that would be converted in
the body tissues from exogenous T4. So, the idea that T3 can cause
miscarriage sounds like an urban legend to me!
Dr. Denis Wilson in general does recommend weaning off T3 therapy during
pregnancy because the event of a national or local disaster might interrupt a
patient's access to the medicine. Should that happen, stopping thyroid
medicine abruptly DOES carry a slight risk of miscarriage. But then, I
suppose that to be true of abruptly stopping ANY thyroid medication regime
during pregnancy so I don't see the precaution as specifically related to
taking T3. Here's what Dr. Wilson actually says about pregnancy and T3 in
his "Doctor's Manual for Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome:"
"Thyroid medicine is pregnancy category A, which is the safest category for
medicines that can be taken during pregnancy. In fact, it can be
instrumental in helping a woman to conceive and carry a pregnancy to
full-term. Although patients have stayed on T3 during their pregnancies, I
usually recommend that patients wean slowly off (one increment every 7-10
days) the T3 therapy if they become pregnant while taking it. This is
because, if for some reason (e.g., natural disaster) a patient ran out of
medicine abruptly and did not have access to more, there would be a small
chance she could miscarry. Remember, at the present time many physicians are
still not familiar with the principles of management of T3 therapy, so if the
patient was involved in a car accident out-of-town, the doctors treating her
might not know she was taking T3 therapy, and might not know the significance
of proper management (with respect to T3 levels/body temperature pattern
considerations) even if they did.
"These same concerns would apply to a patient with severe complications
during her pregnancy or at the time of delivery. Fortunately, many women
with Wilson's Thyroid Sundrome feel their best while they are pregnant.
Unfortunately, they will frequently go down hill again after the pregnancy,
sometimes being worse than they were prior to the pregnancy.
"I suspect that Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome sufferers frequently improve during
prenancy because the developing fetus produces human chorionic gonadrotrophin
(HCG) which can increase the patient's body temperature patterns and
function.
"Likewise I generally recmonnd that patients wean off T3 therapy before
undergoing general anesthesia. This reduces the number of variables with
which the physicians involved need to contend. Also, it is good for T3
levels to be steady, and they are more steady when endogenously producted.
If the time is short before surgery, and there is insufficient time to wean
the T3 therapy normally, then the patient can be supported with exogenous T4
while the T3 is weaned quickly, or stopped abruptly for some reason."
"Doctor's Manual for Wilson's Thyroid Syndrome," p. 166

Please be very careful not to get pregnant if you are taking T3 for Wilsons.
T3 can cause miscarriage. You have to discontinue it if you find out you are
pregnant. But discontinuing can also kill the baby, so please be careful to
avoid T3 if you are trying to get pregnant!
Kitty

Dr.Derry, thyroid specialist, believes that iodine, and sufficient thyroid
hormones, can stop cancer from spreading. Interesting concepts
Leslie

Well, now after doing MUCH research, it would appear that my
WONDERFUL HMO doesn't have ANY doctor on it that would prescribe
Armour. I've looked through every list that anyone has sent me,
including the Broda Barnes doctors and they ARE NOT ON MY HMO.
So, with that said, I'm on my own trying to control this stuff. I
AGREE WITH YOU...I think I need both of them too but I can't go a
goddamm thing about it.
Renee P.

Hi everyone,
I have a history of thyroid problems in my family. I myself had a hot
nodule, so I was hyperactive. I got the nodule out and now I'm hypo.
After years of problems with med I'm now on Armour. Havent' got it
quite right yet, but I'm close and feeling much better then I have in
years. My 16 year old daughter has had an ongoing weight issue. She
is very active with soccer and karate 5- 6 days a week. Eats alot of
fruits and vegs and no red meat. I got her thyroid tested and her TSH
came back 1.97, which I thought wasn't too bad. Maybe a little high.
I was wondering if anybody had any ideas on vitamins, change in diet
that might help boost her thyroid function without meds.
I'd appreciate any help.
Thanks,
Donna

Shemiah,
I found an article about the changing focus of what is considered "normal"
range for TSH tests. But I don't recall it as THE article I just referred to
in my post to you. It does give some interesting insight into how these
"normal" values change over time, given input from various sources like Mary
Shomon, for instance, or doctors out on the leading edge of helping sick
people with thyroid disorder who haven't gotten well under the old system.
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2D\
info.com/articles/aacereversal.htm"
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.thyroid%2Dinfo.
com/articles/aacereversal.htm</A
Linda in LA

What is the connection between eating lower amounts of carbohydrates and feeling
better when hypothyroid?
I am asking because (fearful that I have a sugar problem) I started eating lower
carbs and I cannot believe it but almost all of my hypo symptoms disappeared.
Then, I had to eat high carbs for three days because I am going to have a
glucose tolerance test and I have felt lousy all three days!
~*~Rhonda~*~

I am planning on making an appointment with a doctor quite soon. It
will definately be with a different one, because I really don't like
the one I'm going to now. The problem with going to a thyroid doctor
is my parents. If I went up to them right now and asked them to make
an appointment w/ a thyroid doctor, they'd think I'm crazy. They
always think that I'm supposed to "wait things out" forever before I
go to a doctor. However, my mom has agreed to make an appointment
for me on this.
Yes, and each drug isn't working as well as it should (ESPECIALLY the
depression meds, don't hardly work at all. Any benifit might just be
an imagined one.)
Well, I was going to a chat room and asking for advice on how I could
lose weight. When I told them that I was doing everything the way I
should be and nothing was happening, they suggested a thyroid
problem. I then did a search and found hyper and hypo thyroidism.
Obviously, I then matched most of the symptoms of hypothyroidism. I
just hope I don't end up like some other people that I've been
reading about. They say that their bloodwork comes back normal
despite their symptoms and it takes many years before they finally
get the appropriate treatment.
Another symptom that I experience is slow healing. For example, when
I get a zit or something, it takes about 3 months for the red mark to
go away. When somebody else at school gets a zit that's the same
size and all, the red mark is gone in less than a week. Would this
be another hypo symptom? Thanks again.

Hi, I'm only 16, M, and I am experiencing many hypothyroidism like
symptoms. The biggest has to do with my weight. I'm 6'1" tall and
weight 215! All of the excess pounds are fat pounds because I'm
mostly flabby. Roughly, I should weight 160-174 for my height and
frame. I eat a very healthy and nutritious diet and exercise for an
hour every other day, yet I barely lose any weight (ever since
starting 2 months ago). I lost 15 pounds within one week of starting
and haven't lost any since. I'm being sure to get enough calorie
intake (even though my appetite is small) and drinking 8+ glasses of
water per day.
On top of the weight issues, I also have a low body temperature (97.5
F in late afternoon), tooth sensitivity to cold foods, depression (on
medication for it, meds don't work too well), frequent joint aches
and stiffness, some constipation, trouble getting out of bed in the
morning, acne (taking antibiotics, some success), a few stretch
marks, and an overall tired feeling. My mom tells me to just keep on
exercising and eating right, but I know for a fact that I'm not going
anywhere even though I'm doing everything right.
Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thx for advice.

You need to go to a good thyroid doc for sure! What about the doc who is
giving you medicine for depression and acne? Have you asked him/her about
thyroid? It is not a good sign however that you are getting a drug for
every symptom. You can look for a doc at www.thyroid.about.com and
www.armourthyroid.com
Good luck, I commend you for trying to find a better solution. I wonder how
you knew to think about possible thyroid problems?
Gracia

What compounds the T4 your dr. gives you, is that your
gland is kind of starting & stopping, producing more
or less T4 due to the disease, that's why it's so hard
to get the meds regulated for some folks.
Pam

Other conditions can cause similar swelling, such as mastocytosis and
neurotic angioedema. They are rare enough that doctors often miss them.
Do you have other symptoms?
Chuck Blatchley

This is one of my biggest issues. My ankles and calves are slightly
edematous but NOTHING like my face!! Especially around my eyes. When
I get up in the morning I look like someone beat the crap out of me--
but with no bruising. If I sleep on my hand, I will have a hand
print on my face that take 3 hours to go away. My Armour, Cortef(for
my adrenals)Testosterone(I'm female), progesterone and DHEA have done
little. I guess that I should ask my doc for a diuretic. I was on a
mild on a few years back,and it did very little. I will try some of
the suggestions I've read here,but feel that i'll be a tough case to
crack.
Kim

Is it possible for your body to start to reject your medicine after a
certain time?
I've wondered this for myself. I don't think my doc is EVER going to
get my medicine leveled for me. I have Hashi's on top of everything.
Yesterday I was a raving lunatic with no patience again - too much
T4. Today, I backed down the medicine and aren't quite so insane.
Anway, I think my body is rejecting this stuff but then who am I????
Renee P.

since 1999 due to a total Thyroid removal. I was sort of ok for
around a year then I started to sort of get a rejection to all this.
The last nine months has been hell. I am now on 50 Mcr of T4 and 10
Mcr of T3. my Neck stiffness went
weight has started to rise again

I retain water also. Dandelion and/or nettle herb tea is good for retention. I
found that when I drink about 3 cups water with lemon juice (and I add liquid
stevia as a sweetener) I go pee every few minutes for an hour or so!! Put alot
of lemon juice in with the water. If all else fails and you need prescription
meds, I have used Dyazide capsules and they work great. I believe it is a
Potassium sparing blood pressure med. You only need a very low dose and not to
take daily.
Take care,
Renee

In a message dated 9/13/2002 8:14:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
searock@... writes:
Catherine,
A brisk walk, at least 1/2 hr a day, is an excellent stimulator of the lymph
which is what moves fluid out from between the cells. Also, from my own
experience, cucumber and watermelon are both excellent diuretics. (Just pay
attention to your body reaction, though, if you try watermelon. I have
occasionally seen it listed as a goitrogen.) Watermelon is high in
potassium, which is one of the elements often cited as being low when water
retention crops up.
Linda Rector Page, ND., in her book, Healthy Healing, also suggests water
retention can be due to "too much salt (duh), red meat or MSG; kidney or
bladder infection; oral contraceptives reaction; hypothyroidism; PMS
symptoms; adrenal exhaustion; protein and B Complex deficiency; hormonal
changes, especially estrogen output; climate changes; allergies; poor
circulation; potassium depletion; corticosteriod drug reaction; obesity;
constipation; lack of exercise."
She recommends: "reduce intake of salt, starchy, sugary foods. Reduce meats
and dairy foods that require more water to dissolve. Drink 6-8 glasses of
bottled water daily [I think Reverse Osmosis is the best]. Eat largely fresh
foods for 3 days to increase the body's water content without density. Have
a leafy green salad every day with pelnty of cucmbers, parsley, and celery.
"
Supplements she recommends: "If you are taking prescription diurectics, be
sure to include a potassium supplement in your daily diet."
"Vitamin C crystals with bioflavs and rutin, 1/2 tsp in water or juice every
2-3 hours until relief. Then 3-5000 mg daily for prevention.
with B Complex 100 mg daily with extra B6 250 mg daily
and Future Biotics Vital K 2-4 tsp daily
Bromelain 500 mg daily
Enzymatic Therapy Acid-A-Cal caps 3 daily with Betaine HCl 3x daily
Lecithin 1900gr 4 daily"
She also suggests Juniper/uva ursi tea as a effective diuretic.
Hope something here helps.
Linda in LA

Hello
I'm having lots of problems with retaining water. The last medicine the doctor
gave me for it broke me out in a red splotchy rash. Do you all have any natural
suggestions that might work? I'm drinking cranberry juice at night before bed
that helps some but still retaining some.
Thank you
Catherine

I was told by the OB long time back that your
estrogen levels are definately increased while
being pregnant and that is what the EPT tests
are looking for to tell you if you are pregnant or not.
Maybe that is why you feel great now?
I know I felt like a million bucks!!! for 14 yrs
being on high estrogen birth control,
and even better while being pregnant.
Problem was, after delivery and with no pill, it was
like coming off steriods and that great feeling was gone.
I would imagine you are in for a LOT of changes after
you deliver because the hormone levels will be changing.
Now that I am hypo after the 3rd child,
LIFE JUST SUCKS without hormone help and I Do not know
yet whether I can have something. I feel it is the
missing piece to my feeling better though.
BEst wishes and enjoy having the baby all to yourself
while it's in there and you don't have to share it!! :)
(can you tell I'm having baby urges again?) LOL!~~
And enjoy all the attention while your pregnant too.
9 months of being spoiled and fallen over, to
later have them all walk right past you
(and forget to say hello)
cause they are running right to the baby! LOL
Hannah :)

Hi all,
I wanted to share the story of a lady that I met
at my sister-in-laws house one day. She had goiter
SO SO bad that there was no chinline the neck was
that swollen and thick all the way around. Then she
found out she had breast cancer. She would not let
them operate till she did some studying.
Researching cancer, she found that low thyroid can
produce breast cancer. By herself,
and changing her diet, her neck size is down to where
you can't tell she has anything, and her huge lump
in the breast shrank itself. Since then she is crusading
her story and her diet changes on the web. She is
still in the process of working on the site,
but if you want to check it out she is at
www.co-removal.com
I haven't gone through everything with her yet, and still
just met her, but thought I'd pass it on.
Hannah

Rhonda,
I gleaned the following statement from
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000371.htm
"Hashimoto's disease may be associated with other endocrine disorders
caused by the immune system. When Hashimoto's disease occurs with
adrenal insufficiency and Type 1 diabetes mellitus (insulin-dependent
diabetes), the condition is called Type 2 polyglandular autoimmune
syndrome (PGA II)."
You might want to discuss that possibility with your doctor. There's
also other good information on that same web page.
Also, rather than following the food pyramid you might consider
trying a low carb diet. Take a look at http://www.drsears.com to
learn about the Zone Diet. I've had good results from it whenever I
have needed to lose weight. I follow a moderate carb diet when I am
at my ideal weight. Saving up calories to indulge in carbs does not
work well for most of us. I think you've figured that out already,
though. It's also important to get enough essential fats
(particularly from fresh water fish) in your diet.
Best wishes,
Celeste

the tests my OB/GYN ordered. He said there was a trace of sugar in
my urine and my blood sugar was fine. So he does not think I have
diabetes. Not that I wanted to have diabetes but I would like to
know what the heck is wrong with me.
rounds of testing on my thyroid. The first round, my TSH came back
slightly low which indicated HYPERthyroid. The second round, my TSH,
T3 and T4 tests all came back within normal range which means my
thyroid is functioning properly. I personally requested that they do
an anti-thyroid antibodies test and it came back high. I was
referred to an endocrinologist and I have an appointment in October.
The doctor I saw today says I have Hashimoto's Thyroidism. He said
that even if the anti-bodies numbers are not in a normal range, if
the other numbers (TSH, T3 and T4) are in a normal range, which they
are, it is very likely there will be no treatment. I am very upset
by this! My doctor said that likely the Endo will repeat all the
tests I have already had done plus an ultrasound of my goiter, and if
the TSH, T3, and T4 are all within normal range, he will keep an eye
on me but will not do anything. I do not understand how I am
supposed to get my body back to normal. I have ALL the symptoms of
HYPO yet they tell me I am not. So anyway, after rehashing all my
symptoms yet again, he decided I have post partum depression and put
me on Zoloft. Sigh... I don't know if I am going to take it or not.
I mean, I know I am depressed. But I don't want to treat the
symptoms, I want to treat the cause! And I don't think being
depressed, if that's all it is, could case all of these symptoms -
exhausted, depressed, cold all the time, losing hair in odd places
and in large amounts, skin hair and nails in bad condition, unable to
lose weight despite dieting, water retention, throbbing bones and
joints, worsening carpal tunnel, menstrual problems, hives, memory
loss, word loss, and general mental dullness. Some of those things
maybe, not all of them.

Rhonda,
I completely understand your feeling of not wanting something to be wrong,
but just wanting to know that you're NOT crazy....and you're not. First I
want to say that although you like your dr., it sounds like you need a
second opinion (so it's probably good that you're going to a specialist. It
seems like your dr. is willing to do many tests, which is good, but normal
for someone else (i.e. reference range) may not be normal for YOU. I urge
you to find out the exact numbers of your results including TSH, T4, T4,
antibody test, and blood sugar. You may be on the border line and they just
tell you you're normal. You may feel awful with a TSH of 3 (which most
people do), and someone else may not, but since it's in the stupid range,
you're told that your normal. There's recent research that says target TSH
should be between 1 and 2. There's even people in this group that don't
feel well unless they're under 1! So, go figure. There were many posts in
the last few days about doctors. They just don't get that much education on
the endocrine system unless they specialized in it. You just have to find
someone who trusts YOUR instincts and is willing to work with you to get you
to where you want to be.
One more thing.... I also have hashimotos and am 36 weeks pregnant. My
thyroid labs have never been better than they have since I've been pregnant
(many people have to increase their meds during pregnancy. However, my endo
tells me that my antibodies can go out of control after I give birth and
start jumping all over the place. You said that you gave birth 4 months
ago? Did you get tested for gestational diabetes? How did you feel when you
were pregnant? Yeah you may have PPD, but if your thyroid is out of whack,
then you're just treating a thyroid symptom (depression). You and your dr.
need to look at the whole picture. You may want to have your hormones
checked as well. Just my thoughts. good luck
Karen

On 8/1, I went to my family doctor because I thought I had been hit hard and
fast by rheumatoid arthritis. My mother has it and my symptoms fit hers exactly
to a T. My doctor prescribed Celebrex, had some blood work done and sent me
home. The Celebrex did no good whatsoever. A few days later they called to say
that one blood test they had done, a thyroid test called TSH was slightly low
and they would like to repeat it. All the other tests they did (including
checking the sugar level in the blood they drew) was within normal ranges. The
second round of testing showed everything, including my TSH, within normal
ranges. In the meantime, I had done some research and found that I have many of
the symptoms of hypothyroid and that one should have a test to measure
anti-thyroid antibodies. I requested this from my doctor and sure enough, it
came back high and I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis.
In the meantime, in between the second and third round of tests my family doctor
did, I had my yearly exam with my OB/GYN. He is a doctor that I REALLY like and
respect and I am very familiar with him since he delivered babies for me three
years ago and 4 months ago. I wanted his opinion. Without telling him first
that I had been doctoring, I handed him a list of my symptoms that I had written
down and he immediately said it sounded like diabetes. He based his opinion on
the symptoms plus the fact that my GTT in my pregnancy three years ago came back
slightly high and my last two babies (boys) were big, while my first three
(girls) were average. He ordered some bloodwork to test for sugar (not a
fasting test). I can never remember the name of it but it's checking to see if
something attaches to the cells in your blood. He also ordered a urine test to
check for sugar.
In the meantime, since diabetes runs in my family and I need to lose weight
anyway, I figured I would buckle down and start to eat right. I have been
eating pretty much by the food pyramid, limiting sugar and fat, and trying to
stay close to 1200 calories a day. I have been doing this for the past two
weeks. I have not lost much weight according to the scale but I am retaining
water so I don't think it's accurate. At one point today, I did get a reading
of five pounds less than my starting weight. It's just so hard to tell with the
water retention but I do think I am losing weight. Also, since I have been
eating right, many of my symptoms have eased. They are still there but not so
bad. Anyway, I have done well most days, not so well on a few days. One day
was my son's birthday party. I don't think I did too bad that day because I
didn't eat a lot throughout the day but saved my calories for the cake and ice
cream. It was sugar free, non fat ice cream and I only had a small piece of
cake so not too bad. Then my grandma died the next day and we spent the past
weekend at social gatherings for my grandma's passing. Well, you know how much
food are at those social gatherings! Still I do not think I did too bad. I
think what got me was Labor Day. I had some sugar that day and I had apple pie
with ice cream before I went to bed. And I felt really up that day. Well,
sometime in the middle of the night I must have crashed because when I got up to
get my baby his bottle, I felt like the grim reaper was following me around! I
was in the lowest darkest place all day Tuesday. I cannot even describe to you
how awful it was. My tongue felt like it was three or four inches thick, like I
couldn't speak. My eyes felt hooded. I was beyond depressed, angry, felt
aggressive. Thank God I was able to realize it and control myself. I really
felt like I was drugged. Better yet, like I had just crashed after being on a
drug (sugar?) I was very suspicious that sugar was causing me some problems.
note: I am VERY curious if this description rings a bell with any of you.
Friday afternoon I had an appointment to find out the results of the tests my
OB/GYN ordered. He said there was a trace of sugar in my urine and my blood
sugar was fine. So he does not think I have diabetes. Not that I wanted to
have diabetes but I would like to know what the heck is wrong with me.
Then we discussed my thyroid tests again. I have had several rounds of testing
on my thyroid. The first round, my TSH came back slightly low which indicated
HYPERthyroid. The second round, my TSH, T3 and T4 tests all came back within
normal range which means my thyroid is functioning properly. I personally
requested that they do an anti-thyroid antibodies test and it came back high. I
was referred to an endocrinologist and I have an appointment in October. The
doctor I saw today says I have Hashimoto's Thyroidism. He said that even if the
anti-bodies numbers are not in a normal range, if the other numbers (TSH, T3 and
T4) are in a normal range, which they are, it is very likely there will be no
treatment. I am very upset by this! My doctor said that likely the Endo will
repeat all the tests I have already had done plus an ultrasound of my goiter,
and if the TSH, T3, and T4 are all within normal range, he will keep an eye on
me but will not do anything. I do not understand how I am supposed to get my
body back to normal. I have ALL the symptoms of HYPO yet they tell me I am not.
So anyway, after rehashing all my symptoms yet again, he decided I have post
partum depression and put me on Zoloft. Sigh... I don't know if I am going to
take it or not. I mean, I know I am depressed. But I don't want to treat the
symptoms, I want to treat the cause! And I don't think being depressed, if
that's all it is, could case all of these symptoms - exhausted, depressed, cold
all the time, losing hair in odd places and in large amounts, skin hair and
nails in bad condition, unable to lose weight despite dieting, water retention,
throbbing bones and joints, worsening carpal tunnel, menstrual problems, hives,
memory loss, word loss, and general mental dullness. Some of those things
maybe, not all of them.
He did order an ultra sound of my goiter and a fasting blood sugar test. I
think he did that just to ease my mind. I don't expect anything to be found. I
just want to feel normal again. Well, this got very long. Sorry about that. I
am just very frustrated with what is going on with me. Again, I really don't
want anything to be wrong, I just want to know what "IT" is!
~*~Rhonda~*~

LOL ...............HANNAH .......GLAD IM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO GETS CONFUSED.

oh my goodness, I see my confusion! DUH!
I was thinking kale and kelp were the same!
(sorry you guys can't see the dunce cap on my head from there)
so it is actually,
to kelp...but not to kale?
LOL,
Hannah!~ ps, if your name is the same spelled both forward
and backwards, you will turn out confused!!
LOL

Sorry have to ask on this topic again.
I want to make sure I am getting this right.
I have a goiter. (enlarged thyroid)
I was told this is enlarged because the thyroid was
overworking to make me normal.
Now, it is overworked because....? I don't know.
But I was given meds (synthy., armour ect..) to aid
or replace the need for the thyroid to function.
Meds basically work FOR
the thyroid now so mine does not have to. It is just
sitting in there being lazy. :) right?
Eating things anti thyroid means ..they drop the
function ability of the thyroid
Which in turn would be bad because my meds are hoping
to aid the thyroid and this would working against the meds now?
Do we want kale and iodine out of our bodies? or in them?
thanks again,
Hannah

below is what my dad's book said, I am
very confused on the kale issue.
to kale...or not to kale, LOL :)
Hannah
Hypothyroidism
NUTRITION: These RAW foods can interfere with your body's use of
iodine.
cabbage, turnips, rutabugas, peanuts, pine nuts, and millet. They are
OK
when cooked.
Reduce protien cosumption by reducing meats and dairy products and
replace with whole grains, vegitables, and fruits.
SUPPLIMENTS: 1. Up to 30 milligrams of Zinc every day. Do not go over
30
mg /day.
2. Kelp is rich in iodine, 12 tablets of Norwegian Kelp are
recommended
everyday. (use salt spareingly but use iodized salt when you do)
EXERCISE: Try to get 15- to 20- minutes of brisk walking or other
execise
every day. Exercise stimulates your thyroid to produce hormones and
increases your body's ability to respond to these hormones.
YOGA: Do shoulder stands every day and try to work up to 20 minutes a
day. Try to visualize yourself as strong and happy and have forgiving
thoughts also. (Andrew Weil MD)
MEDICAL: If your Doctor has you on levothyroxin (a thyroxin-
replacement
drug) then be sure that he checks you sometimes for bone loss which
can
lead to osteoporosis
These ideas came out of the book "Blended Medicine" by Michael
Castleman
which was copywrited in the year 2000

Delivered-To: anomie@...
From: "endfatigue" <info@...
To: <feedback@...
Subject: Dr. Teitelbaum's Upcoming Conferences of Effective Treatment
of Fibromyalgia & CFS!
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:43:47 -0400
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Learn How To Be An Expert In Treating Chronic Fatigue Syndrome,
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Weekend Workshop/Conference November 2 and 3, 2002 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m.
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Paul,
From my own personal experience with naturopaths, chiropractors,
homeopaths, acupuncturists and the like I would rate them below MD's
when it comes to diagnosing or treating any thyroid problems. I too
had previously been a believer in alternative medicine until I wasted
a ton of money on alternative health practitioners who were not even
able to figure out that I had a thyroid problem, let alone treat it.
I saw another alternative health practitioner after I was finally
diagnosed and she told me to eat fresh kelp (wrong answer!) and that
was only after I told her I was hypothyroid. I see a chiropractor
about once a month or so, but it is ONLY to have my spine adjusted.
I've seen several dozen different chiropractors and I've found very
few realy good ones. I know now that my health insurance does not
cover alternative health practitioners for a good reason . . . they
are mainly a waste of time and money!
Best wishes,
Celeste

armour that...has anyone looked into a GOOD ND, DC, homeopath or
acupuncturist?? There are nutritional supplements that work better
than synthroid. There is a crap load of research that proves it too.
should be? Find a good chiropractor who does applied kinesiology or
other modalities. There are huge implications with blood sugar
hormones, estrogen, progesterone, stress hormones like cortisol, your
pituitary and the multitude of hormones/messenger hormones it kicks
out for your adrenals, etc...

--- misty <misty_mouse36@...

John,
You are on the right track, some folks bodies don't
convert t4 to t3 as easy as others or just plain do
better with that little extra boost of t3. t3 is
"fast acting", the t4 is "slow acting" for lack of
better terminology. If you're getting heart
palpitations on the t3, maybe you'd do better to
increase your t4 back up to the level you were taking
with the alternating doses. You are right t3 dose x 4
= the t4 equivalency.
Myself I used to take 175mcg 4x wk & 150 3x wk,
alternating. This is 1,150 mcg per wk. Now I'm
taking 150mcg t4 daily + 5mcg t3 (=20mcg T4) = 1,190
mcg wkly. I do better on a higher dose of T4 vs t3.
I tried higher doses of T3, even 5mcg 2 x's a day, w/
125 mcg t4, but I've settled in with the other dose.
Maybe this is an option to discuss with your dr.,
increasing the t4 if the t3 is giving you side
effects.
Will they test your t3 & free t4 in addition to your
TSH ?
Pam
--- "Codling, John" <john.codling@...

In a message dated 9/11/2002 10:41:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
nabie67@... writes:
I'm with you here, Renee! I have a good friend currently in medical school.
She just turned 29 and had her entire thyroid gland removed because she was
going hyper. She essentially believed dealing with thyroid conditions was
"easy." You just remove it and supplement T4 and Bingo! no sweat! All
cured!
When I began to share with her my 30+ year odyssey with low thyroidism and my
increasing disability from hypo symptoms in the absence of abnormal TSH
tests, she loudly asserted I couldn't be hypothyroid! When I went on
Wilson's treatment she was strongly suspicious I'd been duped by quacks!
When I started getting well and getting warm she began perking up her ears
and giving me the benefit of the doubt that maybe there was some tidbit of
information about thyroid disease not to be found in medical school that
might go beyond the standard treatment regime. When I told her about
balacing out my hormones and that estrogen and thyroid hormone were
antagonists in the body, she was dumbstruck! She'd never been taught that!
So, now I'm theorizing that medical school is only the jump off point for
further medical learning. And the mistake that is made by the mecical
professionals who've been through the rigors of such education is they think
they've been taught all there is to know! Sometimes, though, some of them
figure that out and then their REAL adventure in healing themselves others
truly begins!
Linda in LA

Hey all,
I just thought I'd pass this little tidbit along.
I visited my friend who is now a bonnified Dr. She was doing Internal
Medicine with a subspecialty in Endocrinology but she "wanted her
life". Anyway, I asked her, "Have any tips for me to battle this
hypothyroidism?" Her responce???
"No, just really get the right medication dosage and you should be
fine."
If this is what the medical profession is teaching their students.
We're all in big trouble.
Renee P.

Thanks!

In a message dated 9/10/2002 5:21:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
msqhanna@... writes:
Definition: A substance or product that may cause thyroid enlargement and
formation of a goiter, such as soy or millet.
The foods that are considered goitrogenic vary from list to list but
generally are considered to be: cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach,
soy, millet, kale, turnips, rutabaga, turnips, brussels sprouts, african
cassava.
I copied the definition from Mary Shomon's excellent information site about
thyroid disease. <A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/library/glossary/bl-goitrogen.htm?terms=goitrogen\
s"
http://thyroid.about.com/library/glossary/bl-goitrogen.htm?terms=goitrogens</A
You can educate yourself immensely by spending a few days there.
Here's another excellent page from her site with links to various kinds of
info regarding goitrogens, kelp, iodine, high fiber diets, estrogen, timing
of taking calcium and thyroid meds:
<A
HREF="http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa081197.htm"
.com/library/weekly/aa081197.htm</A
Linda in LA

I think there are more diseases because of what others are saying here, that
there is alot more air polluction, more water pollution, more pesticides, more
stress, etc. I think too, that if we grew our own foods, ate organic, etc. we
would be so much healthier. I live in a mobile home park, and I have zero room
to grow, but someday I hope I will.
I too, have heard lemon juice is hard on the teeth. I still use lemons, but not
every day.
Take care,
Renee

Can I ask what this means?
and a list of the names of things that are that?
thanks!

Karen,
Congratulatons of your new baby next month!!!! How exciting.
Take care,
Renee

Wendy, I completely agree with you about growing your own food. Wouldn't
that be wonderful! In the next year, I hope to move out of the city and
start my life the way I want to. I'm having a baby in a month, so she is a
big motivator, but I've been itching to get out of the city for a while.
Karen

In a message dated 9/9/2002 9:25:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
msqhanna@... writes:
Dear Hannah,
I wouldn't take that supplement, if it was me. First it has kelp in it,
which has iodine in it and often hypoTs don't do well with extra iodine.
Also,as you mentioned, it has broccoli powder in it as well as spinach leaf
powder. Both are goitrogens.
Some hypoTs may not be as sensitive as others and can tolerate these types of
ingredients in small amounts or when they are cooked. But others can't.
Which are you? If you were to be taking this supplement every day, three or
six a day, it could begin to affect you adversely. Also, if it was me, I
would steer clear of getting hormone or supplement advice from someone who
has a line of products they are interested in selling.
If you want the straight scoop on what is best nutrition, diet, best meds,
how to read lab tests, will progesterone cream help, etc., go to <A
HREF="www.thyroid.about.com"
www.thyroid.about.com</A
research and has complete up-to-date information on all those topics and many
more! She is THE BEST clearing house for current low thyroid information!!
You can browse the site to find answers to all your questions. You can also
get good doctors referrals there. You can also get good doctor referrals for
a physician more tuned in to answering all your questions from the <A
HREF="www.wilsonsthyroidsyndrome.com"
Thyroid</A
or the <A HREF="http://www.womensinternational.com/resources.html"
International
Pharmacy</A
JMO,
Linda in LA

I agree with Celeste.
Wendy

For one thing, people are living longer. So, they may be dying from other
things than they did in the past. But....I also wonder about they way we eat
today...I'm sure it's really effecting us. We have all these processed foods,
lots of genetically engineered foods, etc... They have tomatoes with genes from
cows, etc... That can't be good for us. But, it makes nice big, disease
resistant tomatoes. We've made lots of progress. But, personally, I'd like to
go back to the days when you grow your own fruits & vegetables & eat what you
grow. Of course I'm not doing this. It's hard to live & work in these times.
You never have enough time to do anything. And, people don't appreciate the
simple life. I'm hoping that in the next 5-10 years, I can progress to a life
change. I'd like to be able to live the way I think people should live & not
just talk about it. I think our diet is so important. But......it's so hard to
change.
Wendy

Below is one of the items on the list of products from that page.
Notice last line says "All vit/min needed for cells". So does
that mean I would not need to take the 1aday I take now?
Or if I took both, would I be overdoing something?
Notice, this also says it has broccoli ingred. which they said
suppresses thyroid function. Again, I just feel confused and
completely ignorant.
What I hoped was my drs would tell me the whats and how muches.
Turned out of 7 drs (3 were endos) not a one ever mentioned
the words diet or nutrition regarding hypo. Only synthyroid, ect.
Do I need a dietician? I would feel better paying someone of
full knowledge of hypo diet whats and amounts.
Hannah
Super -
Contains all 45 of the vitamins and minerals required to feed the
cells plus enzymes needed to allow these nutrients to be delivered.
AN ALL NATURAL WHOLE FOOD SUPPLEMENT! Indications: Fatigue, Lack of
energy, Lack of endurance, Anemia, Stress, Lack of strength, Eating
disorders, Hemolytic Anemia, All nutritional disorders. Ingredients:
Protease, Amylase, Lipase, Cellulase, Broccoli (flowering head),
Carrot, Spinach (leaf), Rose Hips (fruit), Acerola (fruit), Barley
Grass, Garlic (bulb), Green pepper (fruit), Blue green algae,
Chlorella algae, Kelp, Flax seed, Pectinase (with phytase),
Glucoamylase. No fillers. Recommended 3 capsules a day to supply all
of the required vitamins and minerals to feed the cell.

Don't see anything regarding pap health :(
am I missing it?
I did go to the products page and WOW. Seems they have it
all. Here is my problem though, I see 5 different meds there
that fit me (or like hypo patients discuss).....
but how do I know I can take all of them?
Or what can go together? Or what may be too much of something,
especially with vitamin supplements?
It's the same confusion I get with vitamins.
Hannah

Is there any documents I could take to the gyn
to discuss taking progesterone and how it may
effect my bad pap? or how it may help/hurt someone
who is hypothyroid? I bet she will have NO idea
regarding hypothyroid patients.
Hannah

Hello all,
I hope you had a good weekend. I just wondered if
there is anything we can do accomplish as a group
to have hypo info updated? Seems with the large number
of people here we would be a great study for the subject.
I think it is very alarming to see how many years
outdated tsh levels are, and how minimal the symptom list is
when we all know there are so many more.
We can see that we all react differently to different meds.
I don't understand why the national thyroid association
or endos would not be invovled in this group to use as data
from real people and real symptoms to do a large newer study.
Is there anything